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    Sunday, September 03, 2006

    STELLA CAMERON STRUGGLES WITH THE QUESTION: TO DATE OR NOT TO DATE?


    Or, will they still respect her when they know she's a cheap date?

    There is a school of writerly thought that insists you never date--other than in obviously historical novels--because dating might bother some readers. Don't mention the price of a double martini in 1999 because in 2008 the price will be more, making the book seem out of date. "Readers want their contemporary stories totally contemporary."


    Watch out for fashions. This is another warning. Don't mention hem lengths or "in" colors. And hair, be very, very careful with hairstyles. Think before you use a particular car, or a building that exists now.

    I just wrote a car chase across a good part of the country. "They got in a car there, and drove there, by the shortest route, chasing the villain all the way." Hm, seems I could get more out of the sequence by using wellknown highways--with numbers--and cars with makes that form pictures in the readers' minds, and the names of cities as the two drivers race to be first at their destination. But, the roads might change and, gosh, even the name of a town. . .

    Deep in one of my favorite Ruth Rendell mysteries, I giggled at the mention of someone in England paying 8/6d for a lipstick. I giggled because I learned pounds, shillings and pence as a child and 8/6d gave me a rough idea of when the book was set. Even though British money is now decimal, that marker from the past was lovely to me and didn't make the book feel dated. In fact it made me think about this subject and the dire warnings I recall.

    Seems to me that by avoiding a real background when it enters a story by brushing over details, or never mentioning all those little facts that are special to a year or decade, like music or sayings, we fail to record history as it's made. Think about it. I know we usually avoid researching through fiction but it's still nice to have the sense that we're walking on the streets of New York, San Francisco, or New Orleans and seeing what's actually there, just in case we like a little fact with our fiction.

    Just thoughts, Stella

    Do you avoid books set ten, twenty, thirty or so years ago in times that don't yet qualify as "historical?"

    38 Comments:

    Blogger Lori Foster said...

    Stella, awesome topic!
    I dated myself a few times without meaning to. I had characters using a room key in a hotel, instead of a card. When I wrote it, that's what was mostly used!
    And I had one guy with a special car phone... ha! Now EVERYONE has a cell phone.
    And worse, a mother put her baby down on his stomach. Oh my. Outraged mothers (at least 10) wrote me to tell what an idiot I am because NOW babies are put on their backs, never their stomachs. But hey, when *I* wrote it, only the worst mother in the world would have laid an infant down on his back.
    Times change, and even without mentioning obvious things, we date ourselves.
    Besides, your characterization is so wonderful, you can write whatever you want about hair or cars, and I'll just be involved in what the hero and heroine is doing and thinking and feeling. :-)

    Happy Monday everyone!

    4:15 AM  
    Blogger Lynn said...

    In my opinion, a good book by an author I enjoy reading is a good book regardless of copyright date. I will admit when selecting an older title from the shelf I often look at the date, but other than providing just that information it doesn't determine if I'll read it or not.

    I agree with Lori's comment, where the book happens is often secondary to me. I like knowing where & when, but what happens is why I read the book.

    Hey Lori, if the hotel key book you mentioned is one taking place in NOLA and featured a policeman and hotelier, I always figured the hotel was historical and they needed room keys (vs cards) to preserve that element. Either that, or I never really thought about it!

    6:07 AM  
    Blogger DFender said...

    Happy Labor Day!

    As far as dating... it's just the same with most questions the Quills ask.. my answer, yep, the same.

    As long as the story is good, the characters draw me in and justice prevails... well now, there's a story I'd be reading. Dating something? Oh no, not THAT. So what? Things do change. Readers realize that, right? No? ;) Of course we do.

    You just keep writing the way you're wonderful, Stella, I'll always be buyin' and readin'.

    Deb

    myzrptb: My zealous reading prevents tension building!

    7:34 AM  
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I avoid stuff written in the 80s. The fashion descriptions are too painful, and the male/female dynamic of that decade isn't my favorite, either.

    But stuff like room keys, or a street that's changed, no biggie. If I love the characters and the story, a few "dated" details are easy to gloss over.

    8:42 AM  
    Blogger Karibear said...

    I don't see anything wrong with datine things, as long as the story is internally consistent. I mean, if you have characters chasing a baddie across country in a brand new muscle car [serious cold chills here at the thought of paying today's prices for gas for something that burbles 'quartquartquart' every time the accelerator goes down!], you don't want them to be on freeways, just the older blue highways - and DON'T let them take a beltline around a city. Or if it's a more current scene, then it's a classic muscle car, and the baddie tries to lose them along the old Route 66.

    As for keys and key cards, those are more big city things. There are still plenty of places that use real keys, and they aren't all ones that rent rooms by the hour. If it is in an urban area, it's 'quaint' or has 'character' - but they're still there.

    As for prices, that's what credit cards are for. You hand them over and sign the receipt - no mention of price. Or toss down a $20 bill or so to cover the charge and tip.

    Fashion is the same. If you want to use something really dated, then you have a character that is a real freak for that kind of vintage clothing.

    As for setting scenes in cities that bring the city to reality, buildings do help. There are plenty of places to use - MOMA in NYC, Shaw's Garden or the Jewel Box in St Louis, etc. There are always places that are peculiar to a city, no matter where or when.

    JMHO, as an avid reader. And I never avoid a book set in a particular time period, I just avoid books by writers who don't do it for me.

    9:17 AM  
    Blogger wavybrains said...

    I don't specially set out to read 80s or 70s settings, but sometimes I'm already hooked before I realize when the book was written. Recently, I read "Fancy Pants" and I was totally hooked before I realized it was full of 70's/80's references. Usually that turns me off to the book, but give me one of my favorite authors, and I think I forgive the sin of dating. I've also recently read several mid-90's books lately, and it's amazing how fast technology dates us--car phones???? Only PI's with phones? Phones too big for purses? Waiting for pages to load? These references can be a little disconcerting as you realize that the reality of the characters is not "your" reality, but given good enough plot and writing, forgivable. I find tech/roads/car references more forgivable than fashion dating IMHO--give me a car phone reference over now-tacky fashions.

    11:05 AM  
    Blogger cate said...

    Stella,

    That's a tough one. Technology is moving at such a clip, it's hard not to get tripped up.

    I read what I'm in the mood for and if a trip to a certain period of time or genre isn't for me, I'll save it for another day. Oh, the many moods of me!! Thank goodness. I'm counting on you writing wherever your moods take you too. That's what makes it interesting.

    11:50 AM  
    Anonymous Beth W said...

    This is interesting, I commented to someone recently about a contemporary new release by a big name author (not a Quill) that is chock-full of pop culture references. I think it will make it a dated book very quickly. Is that capturing the time, or will it turn people off in 5-10-15 years? I don't know.

    I always look at the copyright date before I read a book, and I don't expect a book written 10 or 20 years ago to be current. The lack of cell phones is usually glaring, as well as things like the internet. There was an older book I read recently that prominently featured a Walkman. I thought it was a little funny, and it brought back some memories, it certainly didn't turn me off.

    1:55 PM  
    Blogger Estella said...

    As long as the story is interesting, it doesn't matter to me if it is 'dated'.

    2:06 PM  
    Blogger Jayne Ann Krentz said...

    Great topic, Stella; one I wrestle with a lot. Technology is the biggest problem for me -- well, and politics which I avoid like the plague. I cringe every time I think of all those stories I wrote before cell phones...

    --Jayne

    3:15 PM  
    Blogger Suzanne Simmons said...

    Yep, I agree with all the comments. As a writer I think long and hard about using anything that will markedly date a book.

    I know for GOODNIGHT, SWEETHEART, I had to think up a really good reason why a guy misplaced his cell phone. Otherwise, why would he be stranded on a dirt road in the middle of nowhere?

    But if the author creates a believable world --- as the best ones always do --- I enter that world and stay there. To heck with any dated references.

    4:25 PM  
    Blogger talpianna said...

    I don't see anything wrong with a book set in the recent past, any more than with one set in the distant past. (Possibly because at my age, my recent past IS most people's distant past!)

    One of my favorite authors is D.E. Stevenson, most of whose books were written (and set) in the 1940s and 1950s. Ace brought out a few of them in paperback a few decades ago. I recently wrote to a friend of mine who worked for them asking if there was any chance of reissues; her reply was no, as they were too recent to be historicals and too old to be contemporaries.

    So anyone who doesn't want to pay premium prices for large-print versions or old copies is missing out on some delightful stories.

    I have no more problem with enjoying a fictional world without cell phones and computers than with enjoying a world without steam engines and zippers.

    What drives me nuts, however, are anachronisms!

    4:59 PM  
    Anonymous Louis said...

    I may chuckle a bit at an out of date reference, but that does no stop me from reading that book. I have a few favorites from the 30s, 40s, 50s, that I grab off the shelf and re-read occasionaly. It's the story that interests me not the dated accoutrements that are mentioned in that story.

    I see historicals as those writen before 1900. I'm of an age that stories written in the 30s, 40s, were "current" at one time.

    I read romance, historicals, whatever for the story, not the keys or phones or whatever.

    nyopx

    now you other people Xplore (books)

    5:54 PM  
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Lori--

    Babies are back on their stomachs now. Nasty choking issues are cited.

    Very high end hotels give you real keys--and charge you $200 if you don't turn them in!

    The more things change, the more they stay the same.

    Elizabeth, on the road

    6:31 PM  
    Blogger Denise Misencik said...

    I actually love reading a book that has dateable descriptions. An excerpt that has someone putting down the phone to removed the tea kettle from the stove (because *gasp* the phone was actually attached to the wall by a cord and we made tea by boiling water on the stove rather than the microwave) puts me securely in the middle of that charming, archaic little kitchen.

    Remember dates with your boy/girlfriend, spouse, significant other that wasn't interrupted by cell phones? I love 'going there' in books from other time periods and getting the warm fuzzies by remembering things like that.

    I agree with those who said a well-written book is a pleasure to read no matter when the time period.

    Stella, your writing is so descriptive and I hope you never change a thing... not even the Honeybuckets! ;-)

    6:57 PM  
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Just had to point out that not everyone is attached to their cell phone. Weeks go by that I don't touch mine. Did I shock everyone?

    I love all the description, little details, out of date or not, are what make reading books as enjoyable as watching movies. No one comments, except to laugh at movies made in the 70s or 80s and now there are channels for all those black and white films. Popular fiction can be classic too.

    Zeusly

    7:40 PM  
    Anonymous Ranurgis said...

    Sniff. I just x-ed out my comment. Maybe I'll get around to it again. As usual, it was long-winded so I'm glad I saved you all some pain. I'll save myself some and just say that I agree with Talpianna about my recent past and about D.E. Stevenson and add Maysie Greig (and her various pseudonyms).

    I don't mind reading them at all and that includes early Silhouette series books. I noticed that even between me and my siblings, all younger than I, there is a noticeable gap in life expectations and the deprivations I suffered and of which they have no inkling. I'm definitely late-War and they are post-immigration to Canada.

    8:21 PM  
    Anonymous Ranurgis said...

    Hmm. I think I can shock everybody even more: I don't *have* a cell-phone and will probably never get one unless I happen to earn enough money to buy a car again. Then I might spring for one--just to have handy in case of an emergency.

    8:28 PM  
    Blogger Deb R said...

    This discussion is so eye-opening to me. I had no idea that lots of people are turned off books that are "dated." I like books that have a really good sense of time and place, whether that time is now, 20 years ago, or 200 years ago, as long as the sense of time is consistent within the story.

    As Talpianna mentioned though, obvious anachronisms are another story - those drive me nuts!

    9:13 PM  
    Blogger Karibear said...

    Heh. I don't have a cell phone either. I did, briefly, took over one from someone else - but the batteries in both of the phones died and when I called the local centar asking how I could get them replaced [since I can't drive] the customer service person actually told me he had 'real' customers to take care of! Like my monthly payments somehow didn't qualify me as 'real' in his eyes. So I called the 800 number and cancelled the account. Doubt if I'll get another one any time soon. And where I lived in Alaska, c-phones didn't much work. My son has one he got to maintain contact when he was at sea, but it didn't work out westward - and it's a prepaid one, so in order to get it re-upped, he has to travel to Anchorage to do it, so he doesn't use it much. A round trip air fare is a very spendy thing, so it only happens if he's going there for some other reason.

    And speaking of c-phones, I know of people even now who use radio phones in their vehicles, or CB radios to maintain contact with their home bases. Some people stick with what works for them, no matter what strides technology comes up with.

    9:51 PM  
    Blogger talpianna said...

    Be very, very, quiet, please. I'm working on the invention that will make my fortune while (incidentally) saving lives:

    THE BABY ROTISSERIE--always correct!

    Just working out where to put the spit...

    ewywqed -- Elizabeth: "Why?" you wonder? Q.E.D.

    10:13 PM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Grumble, grumble--just getting in from errands. I don't like dealing with errands. When will there be one big shop where one can do everything from buying groceries, to clothes, to sending mail, banking, getting the hair cut, a massage when the back is in disgusting shape... I could go on but I'll spare you. Errands suck. There, end of that.

    There are some insightful responses to this question. I agree on anachronisms--very mad-making.

    But I can't think why I didn't mention the biggest writer-swamp in the dating area. Police prodecure. Nope, not just for those writing pure police procedurals, but for any writer who goes into the realm of crime and must deal with "the law." How many times have we read that plastic bags are placed over the hands of cadavers? So many times that it seems perfectly plausible, too bad they use paper to avoid messing up evidence.

    That is one tiny thing. There are so many potential pitfalls that a writer wouldn't sleep if he/she became obsessed with being absolutely current.

    Jayne mentions cell phones, as do a number of us. I wonder if everyone realizes what a nuisance cell phones were when they began to be common--a nuisance to writers, that is. Those pesky things messed with all sorts of otherwise perfectly wonderful setups.

    I'm personally on board with the wary of cell phones group. There's something delightful about cutting ties with the world now and then. Who really wants to be called while trying on luscious shoes, or just taking a quiet walk. Emergencies are different, then celll phones are great.

    I want to know more about whether the baby goes down on tummy or back. Some of us might get tested:)

    Cheers, Stella
    Thank you for the lovely comments about my books. They're embarrassing, really--not!

    10:50 PM  
    Blogger Lori Foster said...

    Stella, with a grandson ready to turn 1 in Sept, the pediatricians are still assuring us that babies go on their backs now. Maybe some docs disagree? I dunno - but that's the info we're getting. Course, my grandson is wherever he wants to be now.

    My cell phone gets terrible reception, and Allen loses his every other day, and we both forget to charge our batteries... so I find lots of excuses for leaving characters stranded without their phones when necessary. LOL.

    Lynn, I have no idea what NOLA is. I'm sure that I should know, but I don't. Sorry. My brain is about 10 steps behind and won't be catching up any time soon.

    Jayne, I LOVE all your earliest books and have never faltered for a single second over dated references, so there. Far as I'm concerned, they're classics and will remain so.

    This really is a wonderful topic, Stella! Thank you.

    HUGS!
    Lori

    4:21 AM  
    Blogger Shiloh Walker said...

    I don't avoid them.

    I think that if you gloss over some of the details, it's going to show in the book.

    4:36 AM  
    Anonymous Anna Budziak said...

    I don't mind the dating. Also is interesting to see what attitude changes--things that might have been ok back then but are not PC(politically correct) now-- there are. Not a true comparison but would you not read Beowulf (well I wouldn't read it again) or Faulkner because of the times and fashions? The plot and, especially for me, the dialog are the thing.

    Just wondering if when they reissue novels if they give the author any ability to "correct" something. Know you can't change plot but I wondered about minor details--those occasional typos that I have sometime seen reproduced, maybe allowing for contraception on some of the really older titles, are those changeable?

    7:02 AM  
    Blogger K.L. said...

    I think it is almost impossible NOT to have some references that end up dating the book. Cell phones and computers have invaded every aspect of our lives, and they keep changing. Ipods and handheld computers are as common today as tape decks were a few decades ago. It becomes clunky to read a story that is trying so hard not to include those things so it doesn't date itself. I have no problem looking at the publish date so I can set the recent history in my mind when I read the story. Sometimes it even makes me smile to remember how it was a few years ago.

    I think story is most important. If the technical reference helps the story, then use it. But don't be blatant about current technology unless it is needed. Otherwise it just distracts the reader.

    10:53 AM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Anna: You do raise a good point on reissues.
    Often a book is reissued by the publisher without the prior knowledge of the writer. Since the publisher owns the book, that's their right. But there are occasions when a book is revamped by the author, not, as you mention, to change the plot, but to update and sometimes to add quite extensively.

    On those pesky typos: Those are not introduced by the author, but during the production process. Supposedly a manuscript is read many times before going into print and any errors should be discovered. But there is always that old human element we wouldn't want to lose anyway, so glitches pop in.

    Cheers, Stella

    2:22 PM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    An aside:

    A lot of us think 80s, EW! Isn't that odd? We are from a number of age groups, yet the reaction is similar. I wonder why that is?

    I have thought the lack of memorable popular music (of course, there were many exceptions) might be partly to blame.

    Cheers, Stella

    2:28 PM  
    Blogger DFender said...

    ... and the hair. Oy, the 80's hair. Eeek.

    3:06 PM  
    Blogger talpianna said...

    Stella, NOLA is New Orleans, LA.

    I remember reading a really early book by George R. Stewart, DOCTOR'S ORAL, just before I took mine: because of the ordeal ahead of him, the hero decided to treat himself at lunch by ordering the blue-plate special--for a whole budget-busting fifty cents!

    reaoh -- Reading every author on history

    5:35 PM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Hey, Tal me luverly flower: What made you think I didn't know what NOLA is? I think you mixed me up.

    The 50c blue place special, hm? Do you remember those meal vending places they had in New York? They may have had them elsewhere, but by the time I got to the country the one I saw in NY was the only one left, or so I was told. Fascinated me. Just the idea of all those people meandering around and looking through little windows at plates of unlikely combinations blew me away! But then, I went to a soda fountain, too (Sadie and Sam's in Bayonne, NJ), sat at the counter and had something on the marble counter. Felt like being in an I Love Lucy episode.

    Cheers, Stella

    7:21 PM  
    Blogger talpianna said...

    You are right--it was Lori, not you, who didn't recognize NOLA. Short-term memory is always the second thing to go...

    You're thinking of the Automat in New York. I can remember eating in them--I think the last one is gone now. I seem to recall that a piece of pie was a nickel--can that be right? This was in 1952.

    ffihzrxw -- What my cat said when I spritzed her in the face with water for trying to swipe my pills

    4:24 PM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Tal: My first visit to New York was in '69. I'd completely forgotten those places were called automats but you're right. And, yes, they were cheap which was really important to us:) We would go into NY to see a play (through the USO tickets were free and Jerry was an AF Cap. at the time)and splurge on something that cost as little as possible:)

    Stella

    9:15 PM  
    Anonymous AgTigress said...

    I have been out of the loop somewhat over the last few weeks, for family reasons, but I must respond to this topic of Stella's.

    I belong to the school of thought that loves culture- and period-specific detail. A story that is set in some kind of undefined eternal present, even if it is good and well-written, would generally be even better, more three-dimensional and less bland, if overtly located in a real space and time.

    Quite apart from the reminders of the past (good and bad), the changed prices (anyone remember in Sayers' Busman's Honeymoon that the top-class port cost 17/6 a bottle? Hah!! ), there is another, more academic, reason for preferring books that cite contemporary prices and fashions and cultural icons: such details will be of real scholarly interest in the future. Romance fiction, written largely for a female readership, gives a particular slant on the world of its time, often dealing with the minutiae of everyday life in a way that simply does not figure in either literary or other genre fiction. It is first-hand history in the making, and it has real, permanent value.

    The bulk of romance fiction is written by Americans and set within an American cultural milieu; if readers from other countries were turned off by reading stories set in a foreign culture, we should not be reading them.

    10:18 AM  
    Anonymous AgTigress said...

    Forgot to answer Stella's question. Books set 10, 20, 30 years ago - right, really recent ones. :-) Fine - as long as the details are accurate and evocative. What brings me up short is any anachronism, whether it is in a book set in the year AD 47, in 1817, or 1987. History is always now, always happening. It must be properly reported.

    10:40 AM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Tigress:

    I hope the family issues have settled down.

    Yes, I agree on the need to preserve history in fiction. I automatically think of Jane Austen and how she wrote of exactly the world she lived in. Her books were read in her lifetime and they're still read today. How awful if she'd left out the way things were around her.

    And now this generation of writers is creating history for the future. I fear we may not stand the test of time so well:(

    Cheers, Stella

    2:22 PM  
    Anonymous Nanaimo Granny said...

    Hi, I think adding current touches to the book are great. I read in a visual way and picturing the characters in dress and suroundings can be very satifying to me. So maybe the 80's are not popular but to readers like me, in future years, they can visualise and enjoy the story.
    I reread my old Peter Cheyney mysteries and love the details. D. E. Stevenson's books take you back vividly, they would be so bland without this
    JAK I have nearly all your books from the Temtation line ie Ties that bind up to date {including Amanda Quick and Jayne Castle} love them all

    9:05 PM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    N G

    I'm also a Peter Cheyney fan--and a JAK fan!

    Cheers, Stella

    11:18 PM  

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