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  • Welcome to Running With Quills, your online newsletter designed to keep you up to date with what your favorite authors (that would be us) are doing throughout the year. Here you will find the release dates of our new books and get information about our backlists. We'll preview our cover art here long before the books hit the stores and we'll keep you informed about works-in-progress and special projects. You'll also receive advance notice of signings and appearances. From time to time we'll give you a peek at our worlds, tell you what we're reading, and introduce you to some new authors.

    Congratulations to Susan Andersen and Jayne Ann Krentz for ranking among Amazon.com Editors' Best of 2009 in Romance!

    Sunday, September 07, 2008

    POINT OF VIEW


    Good Day!

    We are very fussy when it comes to our points of view. No fiddle faddling around, just keep your big feet off my point of view. But I don't blame anyone who asks for clarification. "Where did you get that idea?" or, "Who told you?" If I can't or won't make myself clear then it's my fault when I'm misunderstood.

    Point of view in fiction is a tool. We use point of view characters to tell our stories and to see and think about our stories. Non point of view characters only get to let us know what they see or think when they open their mouths--or through body-language.

    Some stories are told with a single point of view. This has obvious benefits in that it's easy to control a mysterious element, or to hide anything when only one character is revealed. Many books are written in dual or multiple point of view. This increases the potential slip-up factors by however many heads we're in during the process.

    Confession time. I'm a curious soul and I want to know what is on this mind or that mind. For me, the heroine and heroine deserve to be "heard" and not just "overheard." Where I go with point of view from there depends on whether I want to be in other heads and believe readers will want to be in those heads, too.

    A golden rule of fiction is that the writer doesn't cheat. Or the writer doesn't lie, perhaps. A point of view character does not mislead the reader. This doesn't mean the character can't be complex, sometimes oblique, or unpredictable. We're like that, we characters:)

    But it is a foul if we allow a character, in his or her own mind, to deliberately send readers in the wrong direction--unless we telegraph those readers that the character is being sneaky. The only way to do the latter is through the sneaky character thinking they're being sneaky.

    This is a topic that could take hours and sooner or later bore everyone to tears. But it is an area that opens up a chance for questioning whose mind we truly want to stroll around and whether there are some we would just as soon only speculate about.

    The tenses we use and those we prefer to read is another integral part of storytelling and reading. When I'm older and have more time, we'll "attack" that.

    Happy Monday,

    Stella

    What are your thoughts on point of view?

    Who are the must point of view characters for you?

    Are there any character types you have no interest in hearing from?

    43 Comments:

    Blogger knwick84 said...

    I would like to offer one of my memories of POV. Years and years ago (I think it was high school, so at least 20 years), I read a murder mystery written in the first person. Imagine my disgust and frustration, when I discover the NARRATOR was the murderer!! It put me off of reading first person POV for years and years. I just couldn't bring myself to read one.

    7:28 PM  
    Anonymous Cissy said...

    knwick84, on first thought that sounds pretty cool! But I can see how it would be infuriating, especially if you had an untrustworthy narrator. That's the main thing with POV for me, that you can trust their perceptions. Beyond that, for romance at least I want to get the POV of both the hero and heroine. I do like to get inside the villains from time to time, especially if we don't know who they are.

    7:42 PM  
    Blogger talpianna said...

    The classic example of this is Agatha Christie's The Murder of Roger Ackroyd, in which the narrator, who plays the role of Watson to the detective (Hercule Poirot in disguise), is the murderer. But if you check out the "fair play rules" of the detective story, there is nothing in them that says that the Watson (a) can't also be the killer, and (b) necessarily tells you EVERYTHING. It's even fair play to have the detective be the villain (as in one of the Barnaby Ross books). The only thing that matters is that there are clues planted that enable you to figure things out.

    There is also the RASHOMON approach, in which we get different views of the same events--and more interestingly of the same characters--from different characters. One of the reasons I like the novels Ruth Rendell writes as Barbara Vine is that they characteristically have the same series of events as observed by a child and later remembered and reflected upon by that same child as an adult, with a clearer understanding of what was actually going on. Robert Barnard's Skeleton in the Grass does this very well.

    Multiple limited PoV is my favorite form of narrative, though some writers overdo it (you can't keep track of Mary Higgins Clark's characters without a scorecard). First person is harder to pull off without making your narrator look ridiculous or stupid (like the second Mrs. de Winter). Mary Stewart does it brilliantly.

    I also like to hear from the villain on occasion--especially when he's certain he's in the right and is really the hero of the story!

    I think some writers can't even make the protagonists' PoV interesting, while others can make that of the goldfish (or at least the cat!) a fascinating contribution. I can't think of any character whose PoV I'd automatically exclude; I've even read some good stuff narrated by the deceased!

    WV:ehszhpxx--a cockroach whose biography of Gregor Samsa never received the success it was due.

    9:14 PM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    knwich84

    Do you recall roughly how much you had read before you discovered the evil narrator? The longer the writer waits, the more likely the reader feels thoroughly ripped off. It could be a clever convention but I don't think it works for most of us because we too soon sympathize with the viewpoint character.

    Thanks for an interesting post,

    Stella

    4:22 AM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Cissy: Ditto! Stella

    4:23 AM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Talpianna:

    The Barbara Vine stories are fascinating.

    In Wheel of Fortune, Susan Howatch told the story in sections, each one dealing with more or less the same series of events but from different points of view. Fascinating how, as a reader, my sympathies moved around.

    Stella

    4:28 AM  
    Blogger Lori Foster said...

    Hey Stella, I like for all romantic characters to have a pov. So if it's a love triangle (something I don't write) I want 3 povs, and if there's a secondary romance going on, I want those characters to have a pov too.
    And yeah, if it looks like it could be a triangle but the other person is actually going to be revealed as a villain, then I want that pov. LOL
    I want it all!
    But I DON'T want insignificant characters - walk bys, seldom seen, unimportant - characters to be taking up space with POV.

    Happy writing!

    Lori - writing from her laptop while RVing...

    5:18 AM  
    Blogger DFender said...

    Hiya Stella!

    Uhm. Honestly, I don't think I've ever consciously considered Point of View. Huh. I can tell you that I thoroughly enjoy getting to know the primary, and peripheral, characters in stories that are written well.

    In my typical fashion, I just know whether or not I enjoy an author's work or not. Ha. I'm sure that helps your inquiring mind, huh? Ah well, it IS Monday ;-)

    Deb

    6:41 AM  
    Blogger Sharon said...

    This post has been removed by the author.

    7:50 AM  
    Blogger Sharon said...

    When I read romance, I want third person POV. Usually just the hero and heroine. I don't really need any other unless it's the villain. What I won't read is romance written in first person. I feel like I'm only getting half the story then.

    7:52 AM  
    Blogger Jayne Ann Krentz said...

    I love first person POV but, aside from the old, classic gothics, it never really caught on in romance. It is common in the hard-boiled detective fiction genre, though. A lot of PI stories are told first person.

    Great blog, Stella!

    8:11 AM  
    Blogger DFender said...

    That's a very good point. Jayne, aren't Robert B. Parker's Spenser & Sunny Randall stories all written in first person? I think the Jesse Stone novels are written in third-person. Sue Grafton, too, I believe writes in first person narrative style.

    Amazing. I just never considered narrative. Go figure.

    Deb

    9:33 AM  
    Anonymous kris b said...

    I like to have pov's but I dont like it in the first person, I have a very hard time reading those because as someone pointed out earlier I feel like I am only getting one side but my husband reads alot of those our reading types are very different, I think when I am reading a book though I like every ones pov but.. maybe not all at the same point in the book! LOl (if that makes any sense anyway ) I read a book where you knew it was the villians pov but you didnt know who the villian was that wasnt too bad but... I dont know if I like it all the time sigh.. all this talk gets me confused occasionally! i do like to read though!

    10:25 AM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Hi Lori RV Foster! Maybe it's time to put the ranch on the market:)

    We have very similar feelings about pov. The subject interests me exactly because it has everything to do with a reader's enjoyment but most of the time (and rightly so) the reader never thinks about it.

    On passers-by I'm reminded of Raymond Carver writing the vp of a fly on the inside of a bus window. And it worked? But then, I can just imagine what would happen if I tried it. Not pretty.

    Stella

    11:07 AM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Deb: You have a reaction that tells me the books you read are well handled. POV is there, doing its job, but not interfering with your reading pleasure.

    Stella

    11:08 AM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Sharon: I wonder if, maybe fifteen years ago (and remember I don't know your age) you would have said you only wanted the heroine's pov. We were all so comfortable with that. Hero, heroine is an absolutely must for me. I'm not interested in stories told only from the heroine's pov unless they're first person.

    Stella

    11:10 AM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Thanks Jayne:

    There's nothing like a good old detective story in first person. I like first for almost any story but, as you say, in some areas it never became popular.

    I wonder if first person is unpopular in romance because, to a degree, the reader tends to slip into the characters him/herself and first person just about takes away that option.

    Stella

    11:13 AM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    See, Deb--now I've opened a can of worms for you:)

    Stella

    11:14 AM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Hi Kris:

    The only thing that really matters is to enjoy your reading.

    I do wonder if your "villain but you didn't know he was the villain" cheated by misleading you:)

    Stella

    11:15 AM  
    Anonymous AgTigress said...

    I am not unduly concerned about point of view, provided the book is well-written. I think first-person is unpopular today chiefly because it is very difficult to do it well, and when done badly, it is rather more irritating than badly-written limited 3rd-person. Tal mentioned Mary Stewart, and she remains an outstanding example of how to do it. One would not wish any of her romantic suspense stories to be written in any other way - the first-person narrative is part of their strength and subtlety.
    I also enjoy the omniscient author's point of view that is so very out of fashion these days, complete with occasional asides in which the author addresses the reader direct. I do not understand the very common writing advice that it is not good enough for the author simply to tell one about a character's feelings - the character has to demonstrate those feelings him/herself. Well, phooey to that: the author created the character, so of course she knows how the character feels! I'm prepared to take her word for it.

    2:06 PM  
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Like all POVs. As long as there is an excellent storyline with sparkling She/He repartee and a good mystery.

    Louis

    3:09 PM  
    Anonymous kris b said...

    stella,
    I really dont know if I was cheated now or not LOL i have read that book so many times as its one I enjoy alot I really dont think so but did I think so back then? I do know my that in the MANY years I have been reading romance and suspense my tastes have changed from year to year I think that happens when you get older and realize what you are reading more than when you are younger! i know if I reread a book i havent read in 20 years I view it so much differently now, I think it must be life experiences.

    4:03 PM  
    Blogger talpianna said...

    Lori wrote: But I DON'T want insignificant characters - walk bys, seldom seen, unimportant - characters to be taking up space with POV.

    Mercedes Lackey did this in her Diana Tregarde paranormal mysteries: characters were brought on board just long enough to establish whether they were nice or nasty before they were done in. I think it worked well in those books, of which I am very fond.

    7:46 PM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Talpianna:

    This approach works if it's part of the entire setup, don't you think? The odd pretzel seller jumps out.

    Stella

    9:43 PM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Kris:

    How true. I often get an urge to ferret out a book I read as a child or teen just to see if it's as magical or more magical than memory reveals.

    Stella

    9:45 PM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Agtigress:

    Your "academic" is shining through:) We don't often hear someone say, "Henry James cracks me up," but I love those asides. What fun to have a little chat with the reader. The closest I've come is with my Spivey character in the Mayfair Square books, when he and the author spar.

    I'm trying to recall exactly how Anita Brookner uses pov. I think she writes more or less in omniscient vp. I know I have enjoyed her books a lot--or perhaps I should write, her slim volumes.

    Stella

    9:52 PM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Louis: You are the writer's dream; the roll-up-those-sleeves-and-dive-in reader:)

    Stella

    9:54 PM  
    Blogger Elizabeth Guest said...

    Stella said: I wonder if first person is unpopular in romance because, to a degree, the reader tends to slip into the characters him/herself and first person just about takes away that option.

    That's an excellent point, Stella. I think you've hit the nail on the head when it comes to first person and romance!
    ~EG

    8:06 AM  
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Wow! This makes me think and that's not what I usually do (giggle). I love to see the story through several points of view. That gives me more info on each character's perception of the other characters that are involved and lets me get a bigger overview of the story. All I ask is that we don't get the ghost cat's (or dog's) point of view since it just comes off as silly. I do admit to crush on dust bunnies, and other animals as characters-I just don't need their point of view.

    Thanks for the (brain) exercise,
    Lynne Thomas

    11:45 AM  
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    POV is very interesting. I will use Suz Brockmann for an example. I happen to enjoy the jumping to different characters to move the story along.
    But if not handled deftly, this device makes me crazed! I love Suz B. with it but have read others that just irritated me. After writing this I assume the other voices didn't "Add" anything I needed!
    Also, when I reread, I generally skip the evil bad guy thought process alot *and have chickened out in a first read if a truly EVIL person* even when reading suspense. Yea, I know you are evil, and that particular day apparently can't take it!
    Some stories can be awesome from one point of view, but then you have to have some chatty dialogue from alternate thought processes or it can either get boring, or it can get so one dimensional as to have a possiblity of thinking "I don't care about this person, so why am I reading this book?".
    Love the topic! I always like to think about my books in a different way.
    Thanks Stella!
    SusanB

    12:42 PM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Susan:

    Sometime, try thinking about how a specific story would read if told by an entirely different pov.

    Stella

    6:15 PM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Lynne: You're very welcome to the grey cell work out! Stella

    6:16 PM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Sue: Remember the discussion about heroines as placekeepers. That was what made me think along these lines.

    Stella

    6:18 PM  
    Blogger susan andersen said...

    Hey, chiming in late as usual--just got back in town. I love a lot of POV and don't even mind some head=hopping, if it's done well. These days I mostly write in the h/h POV, the villian's if I've written one, and my secondary storyline's character(s). I'm not crazy about 1st person in romance, because that's generally in the heroine's and I LOVE the hero's POV. Annnnnd, I'm rambling. I'm going to go read--maybe see how my current book's author is handling hers. *g*

    8:19 PM  
    Blogger Erin said...

    Hi,

    Hmmm. I don't normally like the first person POV. Especially in romance. Although I now have 1 exception - Karen Marie Moning's Fever series uses the heroine's POV to tell the story and I've really enjoyed it. (I thought I would hate it.)

    10:02 PM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Hello Erin:

    I'll take a look at the Moning books. You've made me curious.

    Stella

    12:59 AM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Susan:

    I love to be in the hero's head, too. The biggest compliment I can think of is having a man tell me he knows "just how that man feels!"

    Stella

    1:00 AM  
    Blogger Anne said...

    What irks me the most is when an author makes constant, numerous switches in points of view. I've read a book (not a good one!) where the author switches POV five times on a page. Almost every paragraph was a switch, till I got dizzy trying to figure out who was thinking. I believe that authors need to be very careful how they switch POV and how often. The switch doesn't need to be so obviously indicated as dingbats between paragraphs. But something has to indicate the switch--a different scene, a time lapse, a new section or chapter. And please resist switching back and forth too often!

    3:01 AM  
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I am with you Anne!

    Stella: Hmmm...now I need to think of a couple of my Faves and how a different viewpoint could change the whole picture!

    Love these discussions...thanks all!
    SusanB

    8:20 AM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Anne: It's all about control and just plain good instincts. If I have to stop, go back and try to figure out who said what, it's irritating.

    Multiple viewpoint can be done very well, or it can be just too much of a reading challence to be worth the effort.

    Stella

    4:39 PM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    Susan:

    When one character shows the story, giving their take on motivation and the goodness or otherwise of another character, you form the world view through their eyes. What's really fascinating is when an author then tells the story through another viewpoint and the goodies and baddies all change places!

    Stella

    4:41 PM  
    Anonymous AgTigress said...

    Is it too obvious to mention one of the classic examples of a story unfolding through different points of view, all of them skewed in some way - Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury?
    The reader's perceptions shift as events are described from each of the four viewpoints, and things that were obscure come into the light as we see them from different angles.

    1:57 AM  
    Blogger Stella said...

    agtigress:

    The Sount and the Fury! Of course. Now I'm going to dig out my copy and give it another read. That is such a wonderful book.

    Stella

    2:48 AM  

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